This is coolbert:
The gauntlet having been thrown, the reply having been made.
Thanks to the tip from Jungle Trader.
A testing of resolve reminiscent of confrontations from the era of the Cold War. I am thinking of the Berlin Air Corridor and Quemoy and Matsu.
This is the type of thing that has not occurred in fifty to sixty years now!
The disputed islands of Senkaku/Daioyu the sovereignty of which now contested, China and Japan at loggerheads, with American intervention on the side of Japan now a done deal.
The airspace over the islands declared part of the Chinese air defense zone, that American response a show of resolve.
1. "Pentagon Prepared to Defend US Planes in China Defense Zone"
"PENTAGON — A Pentagon spokesman says the United States will not comply with China's new air defense zone in the East China Sea and is prepared to defend its aircraft that enter the region."
2. "US: 2 aircraft over China’s new airspace were on long-planned training"
Those American "intruders" reported to be B-52 bombers. The most dangerous beast of them all!
"WASHINGTON — Two U.S. military aircraft flew unannounced near a chain of islands claimed by both Japan and China, and through a newly established air defense zone China claims it controls."
Little itty-bitty uninhabited and uninhabitable [no ground water] chunks of rock out in the middle of the ocean! It is over such matters that wars are fought!
See previous blog entries regarding the Senkaku/Daioyu dispute:
http://militaryanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/09/posturing.html
http://militaryanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/09/combat.html
coolbert.
Tuesday, November 26, 2013
Eisenhower.
This is coolbert:
Here from the January 2014 "Armchair General" article by Jerry D. Morlock, PhD:
"Eisenhower UNDER FIRE, 1944-45"
Extracts and commentary:
"Ike's war fighting strategy and his military competence were the targets of savage attacks by America's British Allies."
MacArthur in his memoirs having described the various campaigns in the European Theater [ETO] during the Second World War [WW2] as "timid".
Timid that term most pejorative in the military sense, suggestive of uninspired and unimaginative effort, military operations not accomplished with the necessary assertiveness and aggressiveness.
Ike with second-guessing in the aftermath of the war seen by some as a commander "uninspired and unimaginative", too "timid", EVEN THAT THE WAR PROLONGED IN THE ETO BY MONTHS!!
1. Eisenhower in those year prior to American entry into the Second World War [WW2] by reputation considered to be the BEST officer in the U.S. Army.
"Working with MacArthur not only taught Ike how to deal with difficult, strong-willed personalities, it also lead an officer efficiency report in which MacArthur - - the U.S. Army's ranking officer, - - called then - - Major Eisenhower 'the best officer in the Army'"
[Understand BEST as meaning more correctly understood as STAFF officer. BEST of course that subjective judgment but again understand that Ike during his career not the commander of a combat arms unit OR indeed never even the commander of ANY unit of any type at all. That reputation of Eisenhower as a pedagogue, an instructor, a man skilled at training troops but most significant, a long and distinguished record of staff work that was without equal!]
2. That broad front advance of the western allies as described and characterized in the aftermath of the Normandy Campaign more correct understood as a DUAL AXIS advance.
"Eisenhower's strategy developed by his SHAEF staff and agreed upon in May 1944 before the D-Day invasion, called for advancing along dual axes, with Montgomery's 21 Army Group in the north and General Omar N. Bradley's 12th Army Group further south . . . [and] The southern flank of that dual axis advance was to be guarded and supported by General Jacob J. Devers' U.S/French 6th Army Group after it landed in Southern France in mid-August."
3. That ability of the German combat commander to form ad hoc combat units that were able to perform in a proficient manner on the battlefield especially on the defensive also recognized.
"The German army soon demonstrated an almost miraculous capacity to regenerate and quick reorganize its seemingly 'defeated' forces."
[those ad hoc units consisting quite often of a regiment of trained and experienced infantry, a company of armor [tanks], a battery each of artillery and air defense, several battalions of Kriegsmarine sailors, Luftwaffe ground crews and Hitler Youth inducted into the army, called a "division" on-paper STILL with superior generalship a credible fighting force to be taken into account.]
"The German army's incredible resilience, and its ability to create new fighting forces seemingly out of thin air and launch devastating counter-strokes, had already - - and often - - been demonstrated on the Eastern Front in the wake of Red Army offensives"
[Those German generals very good at sealing a rupture in the defense, a break through, and responding with alacrity and resourcefulness. Ike having a healthy respect for the combat command presence of the German enemy commander.]
4. AND perhaps most importantly. NOT even mentioned in the article by Mr. Morlock.
That observation having been made and Ike keenly aware of that military forces comprising of coalitions rarely fight well.
At all time Eisenhower seeking to establish and maintain a high degree and level of harmony between the western Allies [English and Americans. Avoid to the greatest extent possible all discord, no unfocused and diffused energy allowed.
Ike in that period between the World Wars the foremost authority on the campaigns of Napoleon. Napoleon quite often aware of and able to take advantage of discord and disharmony among his coalition rivals, French battlefield success often a result.
That Dodecanese campaign the type of unfocused and diffused energy and military power the type of misadventure to be avoided at all cost by Ike.
coolbert.
Here from the January 2014 "Armchair General" article by Jerry D. Morlock, PhD:
"Eisenhower UNDER FIRE, 1944-45"
Extracts and commentary:
"Ike's war fighting strategy and his military competence were the targets of savage attacks by America's British Allies."
MacArthur in his memoirs having described the various campaigns in the European Theater [ETO] during the Second World War [WW2] as "timid".
Timid that term most pejorative in the military sense, suggestive of uninspired and unimaginative effort, military operations not accomplished with the necessary assertiveness and aggressiveness.
Ike with second-guessing in the aftermath of the war seen by some as a commander "uninspired and unimaginative", too "timid", EVEN THAT THE WAR PROLONGED IN THE ETO BY MONTHS!!
1. Eisenhower in those year prior to American entry into the Second World War [WW2] by reputation considered to be the BEST officer in the U.S. Army.
"Working with MacArthur not only taught Ike how to deal with difficult, strong-willed personalities, it also lead an officer efficiency report in which MacArthur - - the U.S. Army's ranking officer, - - called then - - Major Eisenhower 'the best officer in the Army'"
[Understand BEST as meaning more correctly understood as STAFF officer. BEST of course that subjective judgment but again understand that Ike during his career not the commander of a combat arms unit OR indeed never even the commander of ANY unit of any type at all. That reputation of Eisenhower as a pedagogue, an instructor, a man skilled at training troops but most significant, a long and distinguished record of staff work that was without equal!]
2. That broad front advance of the western allies as described and characterized in the aftermath of the Normandy Campaign more correct understood as a DUAL AXIS advance.
"Eisenhower's strategy developed by his SHAEF staff and agreed upon in May 1944 before the D-Day invasion, called for advancing along dual axes, with Montgomery's 21 Army Group in the north and General Omar N. Bradley's 12th Army Group further south . . . [and] The southern flank of that dual axis advance was to be guarded and supported by General Jacob J. Devers' U.S/French 6th Army Group after it landed in Southern France in mid-August."
3. That ability of the German combat commander to form ad hoc combat units that were able to perform in a proficient manner on the battlefield especially on the defensive also recognized.
"The German army soon demonstrated an almost miraculous capacity to regenerate and quick reorganize its seemingly 'defeated' forces."
[those ad hoc units consisting quite often of a regiment of trained and experienced infantry, a company of armor [tanks], a battery each of artillery and air defense, several battalions of Kriegsmarine sailors, Luftwaffe ground crews and Hitler Youth inducted into the army, called a "division" on-paper STILL with superior generalship a credible fighting force to be taken into account.]
"The German army's incredible resilience, and its ability to create new fighting forces seemingly out of thin air and launch devastating counter-strokes, had already - - and often - - been demonstrated on the Eastern Front in the wake of Red Army offensives"
[Those German generals very good at sealing a rupture in the defense, a break through, and responding with alacrity and resourcefulness. Ike having a healthy respect for the combat command presence of the German enemy commander.]
4. AND perhaps most importantly. NOT even mentioned in the article by Mr. Morlock.
That observation having been made and Ike keenly aware of that military forces comprising of coalitions rarely fight well.
At all time Eisenhower seeking to establish and maintain a high degree and level of harmony between the western Allies [English and Americans. Avoid to the greatest extent possible all discord, no unfocused and diffused energy allowed.
Ike in that period between the World Wars the foremost authority on the campaigns of Napoleon. Napoleon quite often aware of and able to take advantage of discord and disharmony among his coalition rivals, French battlefield success often a result.
That Dodecanese campaign the type of unfocused and diffused energy and military power the type of misadventure to be avoided at all cost by Ike.
coolbert.
Sunday, November 24, 2013
Waterloo.
This is coolbert:
Two months ago it was Chickamauga. That was then. Today it is Missionary Ridge and Lookout Mountain.
From the Chicago Tribune FLASHBACK as seen today.
Thanks as usual to Stephan Benzkofer.
The American Civil War in headlines as was printed in the Chicago Tribune of 150 years ago!
"A Rebel Waterloo"
"A WATERLOO VICTORY AT CHATTANOOGA."
"Bragg's Army Totally Defeated."
"THE SKULL OF THE REBELLION BROKEN."
"OUR VICTORIOUS ARMY PUSHING INTO GEORGIA."
"REBELS IN FULL RETREAT ON ATLANTA."
"Our loss 300 Killed., Wounded and Missing."
"Rebel Loss 15,000 - - Our Prisoners 7,000."
"We have Captured 60 Guns and 18,000 Muskets."
"THE REBEL STORES AND TRAINS LARGELY DESTROYED."
"BURNSIDE COMPLETELY RELIEVED AND LONGSTREET IN DANGER."
"HOW GRANT PREPARED TO KEEP THANKSGIVING."
"Confederate defeat at Chattanooga fuelled Union surge"
"It has been two months since the Rebel army in Georgia delivered the morale - - killing blow at the Battle of Chickamauga that sent Union Gen. William Rosecrans packing"
Rosecrans subsequently replaced by U.S. Grant. AND:
"Then in November, bolstered with reinforcements, he [Grant] started fighting his [Grant] way out. On Nov. 24-25, the Union forces, behind 'brilliant fighting and dashing work,' routed the Confederates on Missionary Ridge and Lookout Mountain."
NOT however a Waterloo. Waterloo one decisive battle in the aftermath of which there was no other fighting. NOT SO with Missionary Ridge and Lookout Mountain. Much more combat of a much more horrific manner to occur during the last one and one-half year of the war.
coolbert.
Two months ago it was Chickamauga. That was then. Today it is Missionary Ridge and Lookout Mountain.
From the Chicago Tribune FLASHBACK as seen today.
Thanks as usual to Stephan Benzkofer.
The American Civil War in headlines as was printed in the Chicago Tribune of 150 years ago!
"A Rebel Waterloo"
"A WATERLOO VICTORY AT CHATTANOOGA."
"Bragg's Army Totally Defeated."
"THE SKULL OF THE REBELLION BROKEN."
"OUR VICTORIOUS ARMY PUSHING INTO GEORGIA."
"REBELS IN FULL RETREAT ON ATLANTA."
"Our loss 300 Killed., Wounded and Missing."
"Rebel Loss 15,000 - - Our Prisoners 7,000."
"We have Captured 60 Guns and 18,000 Muskets."
"THE REBEL STORES AND TRAINS LARGELY DESTROYED."
"BURNSIDE COMPLETELY RELIEVED AND LONGSTREET IN DANGER."
"HOW GRANT PREPARED TO KEEP THANKSGIVING."
"Confederate defeat at Chattanooga fuelled Union surge"
"It has been two months since the Rebel army in Georgia delivered the morale - - killing blow at the Battle of Chickamauga that sent Union Gen. William Rosecrans packing"
Rosecrans subsequently replaced by U.S. Grant. AND:
"Then in November, bolstered with reinforcements, he [Grant] started fighting his [Grant] way out. On Nov. 24-25, the Union forces, behind 'brilliant fighting and dashing work,' routed the Confederates on Missionary Ridge and Lookout Mountain."
NOT however a Waterloo. Waterloo one decisive battle in the aftermath of which there was no other fighting. NOT SO with Missionary Ridge and Lookout Mountain. Much more combat of a much more horrific manner to occur during the last one and one-half year of the war.
coolbert.
Wednesday, November 20, 2013
SOFA.
This is coolbert:
From the tip as seen at Jungle Trader:
"Afghanistan"
"From NBC News: 'While many Americans have been led to believe the war in Afghanistan will soon be over, a draft of a key U.S.-Afghan security deal obtained by NBC News shows the United States is prepared to maintain military outposts in Afghanistan for many years to come, and pay to support hundreds of thousands of Afghan security forces.'"
Military outposts as manned by American military personnel as predicated on the contingency that SOFA status approved of and is a done-deal!
SOFA or rather the lack of same the reason why a total withdrawal of American military personnel in Iraq occurred as it did. Military as opposed to civilian.
SOFA! Status of Forces Agreement!
That legal document as agreed upon and binding on American troops.
The protocol of which is that American military personnel committing a crime OFF BASE subject to local law.
That American serviceman committing a crime OFF BASE subject to Islamic Sharia law, judgment and punishment.
"Islamic Sharia law, judgment and punishment" not being seen as totally compatible with American legal traditions, theories, or ideals. A culture clash occurring for which no reasonable solution ever to be found or even desirable.
My intuition tells me that SOFA will not be agreed upon, that American military as currently stationed in Afghan also withdrawing completely as was the case in Iraq.
Civilian personnel, government contractors and such remaining, and maybe not so many of them either. They will take their chances, the military will not.
coolbert.
From the tip as seen at Jungle Trader:
"Afghanistan"
"From NBC News: 'While many Americans have been led to believe the war in Afghanistan will soon be over, a draft of a key U.S.-Afghan security deal obtained by NBC News shows the United States is prepared to maintain military outposts in Afghanistan for many years to come, and pay to support hundreds of thousands of Afghan security forces.'"
Military outposts as manned by American military personnel as predicated on the contingency that SOFA status approved of and is a done-deal!
SOFA or rather the lack of same the reason why a total withdrawal of American military personnel in Iraq occurred as it did. Military as opposed to civilian.
SOFA! Status of Forces Agreement!
That legal document as agreed upon and binding on American troops.
The protocol of which is that American military personnel committing a crime OFF BASE subject to local law.
That American serviceman committing a crime OFF BASE subject to Islamic Sharia law, judgment and punishment.
"Islamic Sharia law, judgment and punishment" not being seen as totally compatible with American legal traditions, theories, or ideals. A culture clash occurring for which no reasonable solution ever to be found or even desirable.
My intuition tells me that SOFA will not be agreed upon, that American military as currently stationed in Afghan also withdrawing completely as was the case in Iraq.
Civilian personnel, government contractors and such remaining, and maybe not so many of them either. They will take their chances, the military will not.
coolbert.
Monday, November 18, 2013
IOC!
This is coolbert:
Back to the subject of the U.S. Marine IOC course. As was the topic of a previous blog entry.
"PT Standards in Question for Women in Combat"
"The Marine Corps may have to change its physical standards in order to put females in positions to one day lead infantry platoons in combat."
That physical demands of the IOC course precluding up-unto-this-point any woman from qualifying as a combat arms infantry platoon leader.
"IOC is a demanding 13-week school that historically averages a 25-percent attrition rate. The first day puts students through a grueling Combat Endurance Test that consists of physically and academically challenging tasks that last all day, said Marine Corps spokeswoman Capt. Maureen Krebs. Marines wear combat gear, perform various physical tasks and answer tactical questions while negotiating a land-navigation course"
Change in the sense of make more demanding and not lessen one iota.
Women Marines brought to a higher degree of physical fitness and proficiency.
That Infantry Officer Course [IOC] even for the men most grueling. That position of infantry platoon leader, a second lieutenant, described by Eisenhower AS THE MOST DIFFICULT JOB IN THE WORLD!
Those requirements of IOC so much that at least a quarter OF THE MEN fail the program. These men already commissioned officers, and not merely cadets or recruits. Requirements as understood across the board and not solely physical aptitude.
Good luck Marines.
coolbert.
Back to the subject of the U.S. Marine IOC course. As was the topic of a previous blog entry.
"PT Standards in Question for Women in Combat"
"The Marine Corps may have to change its physical standards in order to put females in positions to one day lead infantry platoons in combat."
That physical demands of the IOC course precluding up-unto-this-point any woman from qualifying as a combat arms infantry platoon leader.
"IOC is a demanding 13-week school that historically averages a 25-percent attrition rate. The first day puts students through a grueling Combat Endurance Test that consists of physically and academically challenging tasks that last all day, said Marine Corps spokeswoman Capt. Maureen Krebs. Marines wear combat gear, perform various physical tasks and answer tactical questions while negotiating a land-navigation course"
Change in the sense of make more demanding and not lessen one iota.
Women Marines brought to a higher degree of physical fitness and proficiency.
That Infantry Officer Course [IOC] even for the men most grueling. That position of infantry platoon leader, a second lieutenant, described by Eisenhower AS THE MOST DIFFICULT JOB IN THE WORLD!
Those requirements of IOC so much that at least a quarter OF THE MEN fail the program. These men already commissioned officers, and not merely cadets or recruits. Requirements as understood across the board and not solely physical aptitude.
Good luck Marines.
coolbert.
Saturday, November 16, 2013
Citation.
This is coolbert:
August Von Mackensen a supporter of the Adolph Hitler Nazi regime but more correctly thought of as a Monarchist in the same category as a Ludendorff or a Von Trapp.
Hoping for a restoration of the German Empire and monarchy. Hitler seen also as a man the antidote also to the weakness and inept performance of the Weimar Republic.
German honor restored from the perspective of Von Mackensen.
But consider this extract from the wiki as copied in entirety with my commentary: [my emphasis in all cases]
"As a man becomes older, he has to watch carefully that age has not reduced his creativity. After reaching the age of 90, I have decided not to involve myself any longer with matters that are not concerned with my private life. However, I am still the most senior German officer. Many turn to me, sometimes with wishes, but more often with their concerns. During these weeks our concern is with the spirit of our unique and successful Army. The concern results from the crimes committed in Poland, looting and murder that take place before the eyes of our troops, who appear unable to put an end to them. An apparent indifference has serious consequences for the morale of our soldiers and it is damaging to the esteem of our Army and our whole nation. I am sure that you are aware of these events and that you certainly condemn them. These lines intend to convey my daily growing concern at the reports that constantly reach me, and I have to ask you to take up this matter with the highest authority. The messages I receive are so numerous, many come from high ranking persons and from witnesses. As the most senior officer I cannot keep them to myself. In transmitting them to you, I fulfill my duty to the Army. The honour of the Army and the esteem in which it is held must not be jeopardized by the actions of hired subhumans and criminals. sieg heil" - - Mackensen in communication with serving German Field Marshal Walther von Brauchitsch: 4 February 1940.
Concerns! Events! OH we know what is being discussed here, don't we? Hardly I think elaboration necessary.
That elevated sense of honor a "reactionary" moral virtue as despised by Adolph Hitler? That "concern" of Von Mackensen valid, events however transpiring without amelioration, the results plain to all.
coolbert.
August Von Mackensen a supporter of the Adolph Hitler Nazi regime but more correctly thought of as a Monarchist in the same category as a Ludendorff or a Von Trapp.
Hoping for a restoration of the German Empire and monarchy. Hitler seen also as a man the antidote also to the weakness and inept performance of the Weimar Republic.
German honor restored from the perspective of Von Mackensen.
But consider this extract from the wiki as copied in entirety with my commentary: [my emphasis in all cases]
"As a man becomes older, he has to watch carefully that age has not reduced his creativity. After reaching the age of 90, I have decided not to involve myself any longer with matters that are not concerned with my private life. However, I am still the most senior German officer. Many turn to me, sometimes with wishes, but more often with their concerns. During these weeks our concern is with the spirit of our unique and successful Army. The concern results from the crimes committed in Poland, looting and murder that take place before the eyes of our troops, who appear unable to put an end to them. An apparent indifference has serious consequences for the morale of our soldiers and it is damaging to the esteem of our Army and our whole nation. I am sure that you are aware of these events and that you certainly condemn them. These lines intend to convey my daily growing concern at the reports that constantly reach me, and I have to ask you to take up this matter with the highest authority. The messages I receive are so numerous, many come from high ranking persons and from witnesses. As the most senior officer I cannot keep them to myself. In transmitting them to you, I fulfill my duty to the Army. The honour of the Army and the esteem in which it is held must not be jeopardized by the actions of hired subhumans and criminals. sieg heil" - - Mackensen in communication with serving German Field Marshal Walther von Brauchitsch: 4 February 1940.
Concerns! Events! OH we know what is being discussed here, don't we? Hardly I think elaboration necessary.
That elevated sense of honor a "reactionary" moral virtue as despised by Adolph Hitler? That "concern" of Von Mackensen valid, events however transpiring without amelioration, the results plain to all.
coolbert.
Friday, November 15, 2013
Von Mackensen.
This is coolbert:
One of those German senior commanders during the Romanian campaign of 1916, an old-school Prussian able even during the extreme nature of combat during the Great War [WW1] still able to comport himself in a chivalrous manner, acknowledging the bravery and courage of the adversary when made manifest.
Anton Ludwig August von Mackensen.
"Anton Ludwig August von Mackensen . . . was a German soldier and field marshal. He commanded with success during the First World War and became one of the German Empire's most prominent military leaders."
Most specifically so from the Serbian campaign of 1915 and during the battle to capture Belgrade, Von Mackensen in the aftermath of battle: "erected a monument to the Serbian soldiers who died defending Belgrade"!
"In October 1915, Mackensen, in command of the newly formed Army Group Mackensen. . . which included the German 11th army, Austro-Hungarian 3rd army, and Bulgarian 1st army), led a renewed German-Austro-Hungarian-Bulgarian campaign against Serbia . . . the troops of the Central Powers encountered a very stiff resistance, so Mackensen erected a monument to the Serbian soldiers who died defending Belgrade,"
Such honor as acknowledged by the victor and extended to the vanquished normally TOTALLY UNHEARD OF! Von Mackensen definitely of the old-school.
That Serb defender without question [?] the "2nd battalion of the 10th Cadre Regiment" reinforced and commanded by Dragutin Gavrilovic.
"Gavrilović at the time commanded the 2nd battalion of the 10th Cadre Regiment, which, along with a detachment of Belgrade gendarmerie and a group of about 340 volunteers from Syrmia"
Von Mackensen sometimes described in the aftermath of the Second World as a Nazi supporter, but rather should be seen as a MONARCHIST! Hoped for as did Ludendorff for the restoration of the old-time Prussian Kingdom and German Empire and the continued rule by an aristocracy and nobility of titled land owners. NO LONGER was ever to be.
Devoted readers to the blog know of other such examples from the history of warfare? The victor extending honors to the vanquished? This is a very rare occurrence?
coolbert.
"Here rest Serbian heroes"
One of those German senior commanders during the Romanian campaign of 1916, an old-school Prussian able even during the extreme nature of combat during the Great War [WW1] still able to comport himself in a chivalrous manner, acknowledging the bravery and courage of the adversary when made manifest.
Anton Ludwig August von Mackensen.
"Anton Ludwig August von Mackensen . . . was a German soldier and field marshal. He commanded with success during the First World War and became one of the German Empire's most prominent military leaders."
Most specifically so from the Serbian campaign of 1915 and during the battle to capture Belgrade, Von Mackensen in the aftermath of battle: "erected a monument to the Serbian soldiers who died defending Belgrade"!
"In October 1915, Mackensen, in command of the newly formed Army Group Mackensen. . . which included the German 11th army, Austro-Hungarian 3rd army, and Bulgarian 1st army), led a renewed German-Austro-Hungarian-Bulgarian campaign against Serbia . . . the troops of the Central Powers encountered a very stiff resistance, so Mackensen erected a monument to the Serbian soldiers who died defending Belgrade,"
That monument still stands! Almost 100 years later Von Mackensen and those Serb defenders of Belgrade not forgotten!
Such honor as acknowledged by the victor and extended to the vanquished normally TOTALLY UNHEARD OF! Von Mackensen definitely of the old-school.
That Serb defender without question [?] the "2nd battalion of the 10th Cadre Regiment" reinforced and commanded by Dragutin Gavrilovic.
"Gavrilović at the time commanded the 2nd battalion of the 10th Cadre Regiment, which, along with a detachment of Belgrade gendarmerie and a group of about 340 volunteers from Syrmia"
Dragutin Gavrilovic. A Serb hero and the commander of a unit of Serb heroes.
Von Mackensen sometimes described in the aftermath of the Second World as a Nazi supporter, but rather should be seen as a MONARCHIST! Hoped for as did Ludendorff for the restoration of the old-time Prussian Kingdom and German Empire and the continued rule by an aristocracy and nobility of titled land owners. NO LONGER was ever to be.
Devoted readers to the blog know of other such examples from the history of warfare? The victor extending honors to the vanquished? This is a very rare occurrence?
coolbert.
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